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J.D. Power Ranks Most Reliable Vehicles

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Who makes the most reliable cars on the road? And whose products are likely to leave you stranded on the side of the road? The results are in from J.D. Power’s latest Vehicle Dependability Study, and TCC Team, Publisher of TheCarConnection.com, has the story.

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Comments (82)
  1. Buick tying with Lexus is no surprise to me. I've had phenomenal luck with my 2001 Chevy Suburban; in 110,000 miles I've only replaced the tires once, shocks once, the battery and I run Mobil 1 synthetic. It's never been in the shop in the 6 years I've owned it. I had terrible luck with the 2004 Honda Accord I got rid of last Fall; it was in the shop on average every 6 weeks. Terrible car, terrible dealer. Our 1997 Chevy Cavalier and 2000 Saturn have also been extremely reliable; my kids have tried to "kill" them, but they haven't suceeded. Neither have had any major mechanical failure; just maintenance items.

    I'm trying to talk my wife into purchasing either a Buick Lucerne or Buick Enclave as our next vehicle. She likes both vehicles; she's just having some issues getting past the fact that the vehicles are Buick's, and she likes them.
     
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  2. japanese cars are more reliable than american and european makes.
     
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  3. I cannot believe the industry takes these JD power surveys seriously. They are laughable. There is a HUGE difference between a Lexus and a Buick, and very few similarities (mostly in their geriatric styling, poor handling and performance)

    Does anybody in his or her right mind really believe that, just because a Buick owner is happy with the vehicle, that means it has lexus-level (or Honda-level for tha tmatter) reliability?

    Does anybody believe that the interior materials and ergonomics of an obese, large Buick are anywhere close to the materials and the ergonomics of the Accord or the Camry?

    Power "satisfaction" and "owner reported" ratings are EXTREMELY Subjective. Owners of Hyundais that have driven chevys, fords and dodges before that, will praise their vehicles for their COMPARATIVELY trouble-free operation, but that does no tmean there is a huge gap between the Hyindai and the Honda or Toyota. In fact, there is a big gap between these two and the NISSANs, who are almost as poor quality as the domestics, and almost as cheaply priced (and with good reason!)

    As for the other Power ratings, the Durability-dependability, are they KIDDING????? They only examine cars after only THREE YEARS!!!!! Is that durability????? Don;t make me laugh! MY Accord is 17 years,going on 18, (5-speed coupe 1990), and my BMW 740iL is 10 years (or 9, it's a 98) and is closing in 120,000 miles, and looks as good as new outside, inside, and performance-wise. People buying a new Lucerne not only get a vastly inferior vehicle, they pay THREE TIMES what I did for my "Magnificent Seven"!
     
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  4. Even if they are just going off of three or four years of use I am still sold on Buick. I drive a 1992 Buick and she is still going strong. Both the engine and interior are holding up VERY well.
     
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  5. Many people are biased and will never buy a so-called "import" (even though Hondas and TOyotas are largely made in the US and of US parts and with US workers, while a lot of so-called "big 3" cars are made in such low-wage havens as Mexico, and that includes the new Ford Fusion and many others.

    THese people do not have high expectations. They compare their 90s and more recent junkmobiles with their terrible interiors and cheap hard plastics and crude engineering and poor handling and performance,and the god-awful gauges staring you in the eye all the time you drive, and are still satisfied, because these poor vehicles are simply much better than the PREVIOUS domestics these people have owned.

    I know. I had bought a fuel-efficient Pontiac 2000 back in 83, and kept it for 11 years and only 65,000 or so miles, before it had to be sold for parts! ANd bought a used Accord 5-speed 1990 model after that, which already had 69k+Miles. I STILL drive that Accord, now with over 136k hard-driven, stop-go, cold-start miles, and if it were not for the salt-induced Midwest rust, I'd not need another vehicle EVER.

    I don't like almost any Lexus for its conservatve design and unenthusiastic performance and handling, but to claim they are as bad as any Buick is ludicrous.
     
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  6. Yea.. JD Powers is total BS.. They said last year Dodge Durango was Better than a Acura MDX.. Get REAL! After that story.. JD Powers should call themselves JD BullShit .. that's more like it..
     
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  7. I read lots of reviews about the new Accord and saw its specs and styling, and I am AMAZED at the HUGE HOME RUN Honda has achieved here.

    There was no "New Accord" (or even any Accord) blog here, so I post it here for lack of a better home.

    Unless the greedy Honda Dealers charge $5k above the puny $18k List price (and I'm pretty sure HONDA will NOT tolerate such excessive markup), it will sell at a rate of a HALF MILLION A YEAR, eclipsing its arch-rival CAMRY, and even more the pitiful domestic entries in the LARGE and midsize segment.

    The Accord has grown so long, wide and tall, and still weighing a trim 3,200 lbs (or at most 3,500 with the V6), that is now in the LARGE EPA CLass. Assorted Buicks and Ford Tauruses, your end is near! Only those prejudiced buyers that have sworn to never buy a so-called IMPORT (and never mind that HOndas are made in the US with US workers AND largely US PARTS!) will not be persuaded by its tremendous value.

    AND All that Car that looks exactly like a midsize BMW 5-series on the side, and is even BIGGER than the $50k 5-er inside, can still do 34 MPG!!! ANd based on my own past Hondas, they routinely EXCEED their EPA highway nos.

    WHat else can I say?

    WOW!!!!!!!

    My hat's off to you, Honda!
     
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  8. Please stop shilling for Honda, the back end of the 2008 Accord looks like a 2007 Azera. Just another generic Honda! 500K units sold (get real)

    The 2008 Chevy Malibu will be the real suprise to new car buyers in this segment. Looks like GM will have a winner!
     
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  9. Black and white TV's are longer lasting and more reliable than plasma sets, but wouldn't you rather watch a plasma TV? Just because a car is reliable doesn't mean it's worth driving. Reliability doesn't necessarily equal satisfaction. When I was in college, I bought a used, cheap (CHEAP!) Jeep Wrangler that was loud, crude, bouncy, uncomfortable, impossible to heat in the winter, and chicks hated riding in it. But it NEVER broke down. I wanted it to break down, get hit by a plow in the parking lot, catch fire, get stolen, roll into the drainage pond, have a cracked engine block, any kind of catastrophic fateful end just so I could justify getting another car to my parents. But no, it was a reliable but miserable car to own. There are other considerations when buying a car, such as gas mileage, smoothness, power, steering feel, handling, ride, comfort, price, trade in value, safety, insurance cost, and aesthetics.
     
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  10. It's very enlightning watching people suddenly start trashing JD Powers. They dare to say that a domestic car maker made a good car that owners liked...there was no such problem when they rated Japanese cars as being satisfying. 30 years ago people said Jap cars and bikes were made from pot metal and would never be as good as European or American cars. Now people are so trusting of Toyota that when a Chevy Cobalt is rebadge as a Toyota it's road test raing rose 20 points. Instead of bashing the domestics and anyone who doesn't say their trash, take a few minutes and check one out. Hopefully with an open mind.
     
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  11. Mark: I generally agree with you that the Accord, and even more than the Accord, the Camry, has not had a model with good exterior styling since probably the early 90s.

    However, as you can see the facts, the Accord sells 400,000 a Year andf the Camry even more!

    Obviously, exterior styling in this catrgory (midsize and large family cars) does not play a large role. Interior materials quality and ergonomics and fuel effiicency and SAFETY above all is far more important.

    And while the Malibu finally got its exterior styling right, I bet this alone will not be enough, and at best it will steal sales from the Fusion, the Sebring, and maybe other GM models.

    BTW, you should have mentioned the IMPALA as a chevy success. While the smaller CObalt and Malibu have struggled, the Impala has excellent sales growth and larger in absolute terms, because it is an alternsative to the OLD accord and camry (larger etc), but the new Accord will compete with it too!

    I have NO vested interest in either Honda or Toyota nor do I own their shares. I am an utterly impartial observer, and all the enthusiast mags as well as consumer mags agree with me.

    You need to face the facts and start wondeering why the so-called Big 3 have been losing home games 30 years in a row to Honda and Toyota, and if you include the luxury brands, why did Caddilac and Lincoln that used to OWN that segment are not poor also-rans and LEXUS, MERCEDES and BMWs are not only superior in Quality, but also in the QUANTITIES they sell, DWARFING Caddy and ESP Lincoln.

    And if it were not for these rap- and pimpmpbiles, the Escalade and the Navigator, Caddy and Lincoln would have died like OLDSMOBILE did!

    But while the big 3 try (?) to catch up on Reliability, Honda is touting its FUEL EFFICIENCY in its ads (BY FAR the most fuelk efficient of all car cos, despite TOyota's hybrids), and is currently working to be the next "Volvo", ie will ensure that even its smallest cars have 5 star crash ratings and have 6 airbags and other safety systems that even luxury cars did not have 20 years ago!

    So, face reality. Read the REAL stats, not the owner-reported JD Power "fuzzy" and "fluffy" ratings. Don't be that naive as to believe that a Buick is as good as a Lexus. Geez! Go drive one and find out for yoruself!
     
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  12. Brian: Open Mind? Tell that to my colleagues that absolutely refuse to buy any IMPORT, even though the import is made in the USA, with US workers and largely contains US-made parts, such as the over 2 MILLION Accord-Camry-Corolla-Civic_Altima-Sentras sold in the US annually!

    Import shoppers may not bother to visit the sleazy Big 3 dealers, but not because they are bigoted or prejudiced as the above, but because they have already paid the price, bought a piece of junk big 3 product in the 80s and even 90s, paid an arm and a leg to keep it running, saw its resale value plummet, and last far less miles than the imports etc.

    There was a secretary under Reagan, Donovan by name, that was falsely accused of corruption, and later was vindicated. But the damage was done, and he said, "Now where do I go to recover my good name?" The poor fellow knew that there was nowhere to go to do that!

    The Big 3, unlike Donovan who was innocent, got their reputation by the awful quality of their products in the 70s and 80s and maybe 90s, And are still trying to catch up. However, if they (ever) surpass the imports in every aspect, the consumer will NOT immediately go pay them a visit. The big 3 deservedly lost their good name, and they sure will not get it back any time soon.
     
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  13. Re the Buick: I guess different people can have different experiences. My wife bought a 99 Lesabre and it was the biggest POS I have ever been around. Junked it at 99,000 miles. Total crap.
     
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  14. Thor:
    And where do you think all PROFIT from your "over 2 MILLION Accord-Camry-Corolla-Civic_Altima-Sentras sold in the US annually" goes?
     
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  15. " Tino Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 9:14 pm

    Thor:
    And where do you think all PROFIT from your “over 2 MILLION Accord-Camry-Corolla-Civic_Altima-Sentras sold in the US annually” goes?"

    here we go again, the biggest strawman of them ALL!

    THe profits of the impants go to those that DESERVE THEM, ie the SHAREHOLDERS of these companies, AND the US WORKERS as both HANDSOME PAY and BONUSES every year, WHILE the IDLE LOSERS of the UAW "JOBS BANK" "get fully poid to NOT WORK AT ALL" program make new concessions every year.

    And ironically, the Excellent CEOS of the top Japanese Automakers get a Small Fraction of the pay US CEOS get and DO NOT DESERVE!

    YOU and I can buy as many shares of HONDA and TOYOTA as we can, and we'd better! they have gone up BIG TIME while the Big 3 Squeezed their domestic SUPPLIERS into BANKRUYPTCY after BANKRUPTCY! And the Big 3 shares themselves did not do much better!

    (I assume you are aware of all these horror stories?)

    BUT since you raised the question about the profits, in the case of the big 3, I ASK YOU, WHAT PROFITS????????

    The Big 3 have been historically incapable to make ANY profits from making small and medium size cars. They used to make, by contrast, 10-15k per StupidUglyVehicle and Piuckup Truck they sold! Not that much any more, but they still make a decent profit from trucks, but NOT from cars. GM's "Aveo" is made in KOREA, it's a DAEWOO! Wake up! GM bought the bankrupt POS Daewoo a few years ago and rebadges its crap as "Chevy"'s! And the pathetic FUSION is made in MEXICO with MEXICAN workers!

    I hope we can put the "profits" strawman to rest with the above?
     
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  16. " John Says:
    August 27th, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    Re the Buick: I guess different people can have different experiences. My wife bought a 99 Lesabre and it was the biggest POS I have ever been around. Junked it at 99,000 miles. Total crap."

    And they are supposed to be the best of the Domestics...

    A grad student I know bought a 96 Park Avenue, a car that cost over $30k new, for a pittance ($2k or so) at E-bay a couple years ago. He babied it, worked on it himself and with friends that know how, and the car is in working order, after a lot of $ spent on repairs. But his A/C motor is crap, the dealer told him to.. drive with the windows down, not worth fixing! And the QUALITY inside is pathetic, poor ergonomics, god-awful dashboard design, wimpy gauges. A car for those that hate cars and driving. Think of the poor auto illiterate that shelled $30k++ to buy this POS!!!
     
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  17. Until recently, I owned a 2000 Buick Regal GS. After 7 years and 67,000 miles, the interior remained in very good condition and mechanically trouble free. But...electronically, the car had problems. At 42,000 miles, the ABS pump had to be replaced ($1,600), at 46,000 a computer module failed ($800), at 52,000 miles the electronics that would open the sunroof failed ($900) and at 59,000 miles, the ABS pump had to be replaced AGAIN along with some wiring harness ($2,200). Just before I sold the car, all the 'idiot' lights displayed on the dash which can only me one thing: Opening up the wallet and pouring more money into a car with a $6,000 blue book price (but a $4,500 street value :(

    Sold the car and bought a new Lexus GS. There is no comparison on build quality. To summarize, just about any car manufacturer can build a mechanically sound car. It's the reliability of the electronic components that matter. Oh, how times have changed.
     
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  18. I have had 63 cars in my life( I am 57) the Italian (fiat spyders) were the worse......I had an o6 mercury Grand Marquis....excellent car 20 in city and 27-28 hiway....but look thru the grill and the parts said Made In China (air condoning parts. so all cars are foreign to some degree. I now drive a 2007 Kia Spectra 5 and have found no errors or fault with the automobile. I have had it only four months and have 7500 miles , would probably buy another.
     
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  19. Don't sell American makes short...I own a 2007 Ford Edge...SEL+..It is the most ergonomic car I have ever driven...It has 5000 + miles and have not had a bad day yet...It is free of any noise, vibration , or harshness whatsoever...It is equipped with a 6 speed automatic which is a dream...It has a 3.6 L V-6 which purrs like a kitten...It has the punch of 260 horses...I get more smiles per mile than any other car I have ever owned in the past 30 years at the rate of about one every 12 months...This one is a keeper, fa'sure...Gorgeous in every execution....from design to engineering excellence...
     
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  20. The last three posts were sure Interesting. Two of them refer to almost brand-new cars (a Ford Edge and a Kia), with less than even 10k miles on them. Besides being under warranty, most new cars do not fail during these first few years. You'd have to get an unreliable italian exotic like a Maserati to have a good chance of that, and one of my old friends at the UM Business School did so, and it proved a total lemon, he took it back to the dealer and was given a new one.

    The proof of durability and reliability and quality is in the long run, of course.

    My BMW 98 740il just went over 120,000 miles and is driving great so far. I only had to do One major repair since I bought it with 113k in oct 05 (replaced water pump (after a ball bearing broke), radiator, and some hoses damaged when a $50 belt broke because of the initial ball bearing failure). Paid $1,400 and actually, for these parts, on a $75,000 car when new, it was a good bargain. And they come with a 2-year, Unlimited miles BMW warranty.

    I took a big risk when I bought the BMW (for peanuts, right after Katrina and the gas price spike in Sept. 05), and did no teven take it to a mechanic! But I knew its owner drove it 60 miles each way to work, so it had to be in good shape, plus these were mostly highway miles, not as punishing as city, stop-go, and cold start, short trip miles, like I usually do (got a 1.5 mile commute each way)

    I still recommend NOT buying a new car unless it has a "must have" tech safety feature that used cars do not have.

    No matter how much you can afford to spend, you are always better off avoiding the dealer altogether and bying a used car from its owner, esp. if it is a neighbor or somebody you know and know he has not abused the vehicle.

    Many auto enthusiasts tease lexus owners by calling their cars with names as "The Buick LS400" instead of "Lexus LS..". However, the GS Howard bought (was it a 300 or a 400?) is a sportier version, and still with more space inside than the more 3-series like IS series.
     
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  21. So I'm a long time reader, but new writer and here's my take on "reliability" and "quality". A Toyota Camry may be rated better quality or more reliable than something like a Nissan Altima or Pontiac G6 or something with "sporty" intentions, but that is at least partially because it is leading an easier life. A Camry owner is probably not gonna be racing around town or driven nearly as hard as most other cars because it is probably not being as stressed by its owner compared to most other cars on the market. Now I'm sure some of you are going to say "oh but I'm a Camry owner and I drive the hell out of it and its fine." Well frankly, you're either lying to prove your point, or you're in the minority of owners. A Camry owner is more than likely to be older than the owner of an Altima or a G6 or Aura too, so again they will not be as likely to drive their car as hard. I'm not saying that a Camry is not a good reliable car, because it is just that. I'm just saying that it leads a very different life (probably easier) than many other cars on the market.

    Personally, I'd like to see an endurance race between a bunch of stock family sedans. Then we can see who's making cars that can take the abuse of prolonged high RPM driving, hard braking, and hard cornering. Maybe this isn't practical in the real world, but I think it would be telling on who is really making "quality" products.

    That being said, I think all automakers are generally pretty good in reliability and all have their pros and cons. Every car maker is also going to make some lemons. It happens and it sucks when it does, but it will always happen.
     
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  22. Well guess I'll show my age here. Back in the 50's my father's Uncle who ran a shop said the Buick Roadmaster was the best car on the road at that time. Buick always had apretty good name for American cars. So yes I can believe the survey to a point. And it just maybe American cars are finally closing the gap!
     
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  23. This really isn't anything earth shattering. The past few years there's been numerous gains by domestic manufacturer's in improving quality and reliability. Although it's comical to read some people trying to justify their biases. Years ago they praised JDPower when they used it to purchase their Honda and Toyota, now they try to discredit it.

    Some people are having a hard time believing that a Mercury Milan is more reliable than a Camry or Accord. I guess some are trying to justify their purchase, because they usually paid thousands more for a Camry, over an equal domestic product (which probably carried huge rebates). Now the Camry's are having engine sludge problems, and faulty transmissions, as are the Hondas. The tables have definetly turned and the media is now catching on to it.

    Another factor happens to be market share. GM and Ford for years enjoyed huge market share when they made 500K plus, of a single vehicles. When you have those many units, more problems affect, MORE people. And that's the issue occuring with the Camry and Accord...They are selling over 400K units, and when there's an inherent problem with their transmissions, it's going to affect many MORE units.

    JDPower is the authority on automotive reliability data. They have the largest sample data in the industry, they ARE the resource for this sort of information. Not Consumer Reports which pass out a few survey to a few readers. This isn't a conspiracy that occured overnight, this has been the pattern the past few years. The gap has been closing in real soon, and thats what not only JDPower surveys have shown, but numerous other creditable sources such as JDPower.
     
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  24. CONSUMER REPORTS, an institution that I trust FAR FAR MORE than any JD Power survey bought and paid for by the Industry, refuses ALL ADS in its magazine, relying on 7+ Million private subscribers for its expenses.

    THAT publication today recommends to keep your car for 225,000 miles and SAVE $ 30,800 on average.

    THe problem is that the only cars you can really do that with are either HOndas or Toyotas (no surprise here). READ ON (from AUTOBLOG):

    "The average car buyer trades his car in every five years. If, instead, you didn't trade your car in but kept it for 15 years, or 225,000 miles, Consumer Reports says you'd save $30,800. How'd they get that figure? If you bought a Honda EX and kept it for a decade-and-a-half rather than replacing it, you'd save $20,500 in new car expenses, depreciation, taxes, and insurance. The other $10,300 comes from the interest you earned on the twenty grand -- because of course you'd invest it responsibly, which is the entire reason you aren't trading your car in, right?

    The magazine then gives a list of Good Bets and Bad Bets to make it past 200K miles, even with good maintenance. Every single car on the Good Bets list is either a Honda or Toyota. The bad bets are almost all European, with two Nissans for company. Fascinating that no domestic made either list, when we see cars every day that look like they've wrapped the odometer and done another two hundred thousand. Let the commentary begin."
     
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  25. I find it interesting that many repondants to this article have not owned a vehicle from this century. They chat about their 9 and 18 year old vehicles with not a sniff of an idea of the quality of all vehicles today, let alone domestic vehicles. They listen to car mags and other such things as apposed to statistics. . . Simplistically though, the "worst vehicle" today is better than the "best vehicle" ten years ago. Domestic vehicles have come a very long way in the last ten years and I believe at least rival the top japanese product in quality. JD Power and associates are not a Mickey Mouse organization, they do their research and surveys in a fashion that is mathematically supportable, as they should as a large reputable research company. Like it or not, the domestic manufacturers are building good quality, innovative product that will get great consumer acceptance going forward. I in fact think that moving ahead to 2010 & beyond, you will see market share gains by the domestics and very positive reviews on their products. Has anyone driven those new Fords for example, like the Edge? My friend has one, it is awesome and I would put it up against the Lexus versus of it, which is WAY more dough, anytime.
     
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  26. first of all...yes i will agree that in the mid 90's and even late 90's most imports were more reliable than most domestics. But the american manufacturers have come a long way. The 2007 Malibu if i recall beat the Toyota Camry in the JD power studies. And also lets think about this one for a second...what happened to those reliable toyotas last year??? In 2006 Toyota had more recalls than vehicles sold. But did you ever hear about that on the news? no you didnt because that is this country's perception of toyota...they are great. But GMC and Chevrolet have a recall because of a stupid tailgate strap snapping and its all over CNN...So instead of reporting Toyota Camry engine sludging and The new Tundra IFORCE v8's blowing up because of a cam-related issues this country has to fixate themself on a friggin cable strap. Oh by the way how can you compare Chevrolet to Toyota in a quality study. Can a toyota truck pull a 9,000lb bobcat or wait how bout a 16,500lb trailer or can your camry do the quarter mile in 11.7 seconds @ 117mph? last time i checked they couldnt. You see Chevrolet also sells alot of "muscle-cars" or should i say vehicles with pushrod V-8's, something you cant find in a Toyota, but i will get back to that later. Who buys a muscle-car to put around and go to work...not many people, who buys a 1-ton dump truck to just drive around... alot of Chevrolet vehicles are used and abused. Not to say Toyotas cant be used or abused but when is the last time u saw a Tundra dump truck or a v-8 camry. Its all perception...the new tundra is nice i will agree but the new GMT900's are better... So lets see the new silverado has less horsepower, smaller brakes, and a tried and true 4-speed, yet it's quicker, stops better, and is more fuel economical than the new Tundra. The numbers dont lie... and by the way why is Toyota allowed in Nascar??? Nascar has always been centered around the manufacturers that supplied the vehicles to race, the manufacturer had to produce a certain amount of engines/car/whatever to even be allowed in nascar...Now Ford Chevy and Dodge have all made Pushrod V-8s, but how does Toyots get allowed in, they dont produce and never have produced a legit pushrod V-8 engine. in case you didnt know that v-8 that powers those camry's and Tundras in Nascar is actually contains Dodge heads and Chevrolet intakes. So how does toyota get in...because of money the only reason Toyota is a succes in american motorsports is because they buyout the competition, when toyota first came into the truck series they werent that good until they woo'd several top teams to switch, as they are doing with joe gibbs racing in the cup series....why dont you ask a mid 90's Toyota truck owner how there rotted out bed is doing or even ask an owner of a brand-new FJ cruiser how they like it...they will probably say they love it, what they dont know is that the second they even hit a curb with that FJ cruiser the frame will begin showing stress cracks....its happening all over the place look it up, but you dont hear that on the news now do you... You see this country's perception is so far from what it should be...People believe whatever they see or read or even hear. Have an open mind give a domestic a chance, you will be surprised. Oh and Thor...ya a ford may be ASSEMBLED in mexico and a Chevy in Canada. but the majority of the parts come from the U.S. believe it or not which is why they are so much cheaper than an import part. Yes Toyotas may be assembled in the United States, but not all of them in fact most camry's are shipped from over sea's. Why dont you go to a Toyota dealer and see how much a wheel bearing is for a Camry then go to a chevy dealer and check for one for an impala. Toyota's may be assembled in the U.S. but the parts are still imported thus the drastic price increase compared to a domestic part...the fact of the matter is this country needs to go back to 1945 during World War II when americans supported american products and were proud of the fact.
    Be American Buy American.
     
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  27. Mark sez: I find it interesting that many repondants to this article have not owned a vehicle from this century. They chat about their 9 and 18 year old vehicles with not a sniff of an idea of the quality of all vehicles today, let alone domestic vehicles."

    FIRST OF, even if what you say is correct and NONE of these people do not own a car made after the in your opinion magical year 2000, and speaking for MYSELF, I RENT brand new cars from Avis and HErtz and all the other major renta car cos ALL THE TIME in my business travels and they are, as they have always been, CRAP. The last one was a brand new DODGE AVENGER, a Dodge Charger wannabe. I will not waste my time listing all the ways they got this vehicle wrong. Rent one for a couple days and you'll find out. I will NEVER waste $20,000 on such a POS, EVEN if it were one half as reliable as my Accord, (AND Chryslers STILL Are not, hence their GIMMICK, NON-TRANSFERRABLE lifetime warranty. As if anybody would want to own that ugly, cheap POS all his or her life). Geez.

    "They listen to car mags and other such things as apposed to statistics. . . "

    Garbage. I listen to EVERYTHING, FROM the Enthusiast Mags like Car and Driver that conduct PERFORMANCE and one-year Long term tests, TO the INDEPENDENT, UNBIASED, NO ADS ACCEPTED so NO CONFL:ICT OF INTEREST Consumer Reports, And BOTH rank the ACCORD at the TOP for DECADES, with NO evidence of it getting any worse over the years. AS the domestics have improved their reliability, the Accord has improved its own stellar reliab even more, AND in addition, has now focused on SAFETY and PERFORMANCE too. DOmestics still play Catch up, and with CEOS and the UAW they got, there is no chance they will ever catch up, whether YOU like it or not.

    "Simplistically though, the “worst vehicle” today is better than the “best vehicle” ten years ago. "


    THIS IS UTTER, UNADULTERATED GARBAGE. LAUGHABLY IDIOTIC AND UNINFORMED COMMENT. My "Magnificent Seven" BMW 740iL from 1998 is worse than the worst, ugly CHEVY, HYUNDAI, Even Honda or Toyota of today? YOU HAVE NO CLUE what you are talking about. LOOK IT UP.

    "Has anyone driven those new Fords for example, like the Edge? My friend has one, it is awesome and I would put it up against the Lexus versus of it, which is WAY more dough, anytime."

    I could care LESS for EITHER that EDGE rounded breadvan on stilts or that Effeminate Lexus RX 350 or whatevere name it has now. I would NEVER buy either, as neither satisfies the needs of today, which are for FUEL EFFICIENT WELL PERFORMING CARS with BOTH Active and PASSIVE Safety. IF you want a MINIVAN, go buy one! DO NOT buy the stupid SUVs and CROSSOVERS transvestite vehicle frauds you NEVER NEEDED. DO NOT be a slave to fashion. these ludicrous vehicles are today's equivalents of the bell bottom pants. AND that's my opinion, wether you like it or not.

    PS If you can find a way to make my 18 year old Accord to drop dead, I'd appreciate. My neighbor sells a shiny S-class Mercedes TURBODIESEL for $2,900. I'd like to use it as my everyday "economy car.. LOL.. and keep the Big Bimmer for Performance.
     
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  28. I recently drove both the Buick Lucern and the Lexus 350 and the Buick either equaled this lexus model or was better in handling, styling and ride. You Honda and Toyota lovers just can't change your perceptions even when the evidence stares you in the face. Another thing as far as exterior stying GM, ford and now Chrysler has the the Japs beat; their styling for me has always been too bland, copycated and unimaginative. Honda has better fuel economy numbers not because of some magical engine but lighter smaller cars with poor performance 4 cylinder engines.
    It somtimes just a matter of preference you like raw suishi and saki and I like linquine and clams with a good red wine. Go fiqure.
     
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  29. Consumer Reports is highly biased listen they know washing machines not how to value subjective things like handling and exterior styling. They constantly knock American and European made cars even before driving them. Toyota and Honda would have never gone anywhere if it wasn't for their biased reports the last 30 years. Why do I say biased their summary reliablity ratings contradict the category ratings especially for American cars. Knocking domestics is big business and they capitalize on that to sell mag. Another thing don't rate American cars on the merits of rentals they are stripped down versions. So listen up you pro eastern wannabees and come back to Western civilization.
     
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  30. Thor whats the matter dont have anything to say about what i wrote???
     
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  31. Jordan,

    Sorry I did not have the time to address your comments, i saw your post at the same time as Mark's, and it was much faster to address Mark's first.

    Yes, I read about the auto industry every day and heard about the TOyota recalls. I don't think that any of them was anything major. It was more surprising to see the Honda Auto Transmission failures/recalls some time back.

    I am not in the market for a pickup truck, but I agree with you on the Silverado (the new one) being quite good. I also heard it is more fuel efficient than the new, big and heavy Tundra.

    Regarding "domestic content" of Fords made in Mexico and Hondas made in Ohio, you can get the detailed percentage info and there are MANY vehicles made by the big 3 that have LEss Domestic content than vehicles made in the USA by Honda, TOyota, or Nissan.

    Regarding "perception", of course it plays a huge role. Imagine a prostitute trying to pass as a good housewife. Who will believe her at first? Same thing with the domestic vehicles. After decades of poor, unreliable, low-rent designs with cheap plastic and fake wood interiors, why would anybody bother to consider them again, before a decade or so passes, and everybody says that they are superior to the imports? Only then will they recover their once good name, if ever.

    BUT the best kept secret in the US Auto markets is not how Honda and Toyota came to dominate the mid-priced light vehicle markets, but how the Imports, European and Japanese, have taken over the LUXURY market segment, which used to be Caddilac and Lincoln and a few crumbs to Mercedes and BMW a few decades ago.

    TOday, more than 75-85% of the luxury cars sold in the US are IMPORTS, with BMW number 1, LExus No 2, Merc no 3, Acura and Infiniti Volvo and Audi next!!!!!
     
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  32. " Artie Says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    I recently drove both the Buick Lucern and the Lexus 350 and the Buick either equaled this lexus model or was better in handling, styling and ride. "

    I would not buy either. Both have poor handling and performance. No accident they call the Lexus ES 350 the... Buick ES350, and same with the LS models. These (now Buicks and Caddies, but in the future LExuses too) are old people's cars they drive at 40 MPH in FLorida to their early bird dinner so they can get the $1 discount.. LOL..

    "You Honda and Toyota lovers just can’t change your perceptions even when the evidence stares you in the face."

    Don't make me laugh. First of all these is no such thing as a Toyota, Lexus or Buick Lover. these things are APPLIANCES, not ENTHUSIAST cars one can love. HONDAS and BMWS are a TOTALLY Differetn story. Obviously you never owned one, and one with a MANUAL transmission at that.

    " Another thing as far as exterior stying GM, ford and now Chrysler has the the Japs beat; their styling for me has always been too bland, copycated and unimaginative."

    YOu are mostly correct on this one. You are lucky you only said EXTERIOR styling. Interior-wise, the domestics, even expensice $30-35k buicks, are really lousy, poor design, poor ergonomics, and poor material quality. Do you think you deserve fake wood (or wood so bad, it looks fake anyway) on $60k Caddilacs and Lincolns?

    " Honda has better fuel economy numbers not because of some magical engine but lighter smaller cars with poor performance 4 cylinder engines."

    They are smaller cars with smaller engines but NOT with "poor performance" and to have some guy who likes BUICKS of all the crap out there, is LUDICROUS. Learn how to drive a stick and get ANY Honda with a manual, and you will see what EXcellent Economy with GREAT Performance means.


    "It somtimes just a matter of preference you like raw suishi and saki and I like linquine and clams with a good red wine. Go fiqure."

    No it is not. It does not mean that If I like Mercedeses and BMWs I also like... that god-awful German "Umpah" music. On the contrary, I greatly enjoy German CLASSICAL Music, where they arte the best in the world, hands down. To imply that just because one is well informed and has a brain and buys a Honda instead of a... Cobalt or Malibu, does not also mean one likes Sake or even sushi.
     
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  33. " Artie Says:
    September 18th, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    Consumer Reports is highly biased listen they know washing machines not how to value subjective things like handling and exterior styling."

    1. CR does NOT evaluate styling. THey do comment on handling mainly as it affects safety, since even non-enthusiasts care about that. Many people buy cars as if they were appliances, they want to take them from A to B safely and reliably, and CR tells them which cars can do that best.

    2. I can PROVE why CR is obviously far more UNbiased than anything out there that ACCEPTS ADS by the Automakers. CR does NOT, hence can say what it wants, and if it is bad for the Germans or the domestics, the CONSUMER has the RIGHT TO KNOW before he or she spend their hard-earned $ on a car. You, on the other hand, have not ONE SHRED of proof of your slander that CR IS biased.

    "They constantly knock American and European made cars even before driving them. "

    THat is SUCH nonsense, I should be not wasting valuable time responding to it. CR BUYS their cars RETAIL, unlike the Entusiast Mags that get them FOR FREE from the makers. AND they DO TEST THEM THOROUHGLY before reporting. You don't have CLUE ONE, Stop propagating Lies. Are you one of these proud "jobs bank" UAW members that get 100% pay to do NOTHING (literally!)?

    But here is an opportunity that I have grabbed. CR recommends AVOIDING the & series BMW, the magnificent flagship sedan, and as a consequence used BMW 7 series prices are dirt cheap. In Oct 05, I bought a 98 740iL, with extreme rear leg room, the long version, an awsome 4.4 lt 282HP, 300+lbft V8, for NOTHING ($10.5k fully fixed and detailed). I took a risk, and thought I'd drive the thing only on long highway trips, but now I drive it daily too. The CR prediction DID prove right, but that was in the Budget, I bought a $75k car for $10.5k, If I bought it new, the first year depreciation alone would be $15k, so I have plenty of cash left to pay for any repairs. So far, two years, only one major repair (replaced water pump, radiator and some belts and hoses) for a total of $1,400, very reasonable for such an expensive vehicle. And the Fuel econ is not good, 15 MPG in lively city driving and 22-25 in high speed highway driving. But my commute is only a couple miles, today I walked, will try to walk when I can.
     
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  34. Big 3 worst in LUXURY car and truck sales:

    While it took until this summer for the big 3 to Ever go below 50% in total car and light truck sales, their fate in Luxury cars has been 100 times worse!

    An article in yesterday's Financial TImes pointed out the horror story (for the domestics): Import share of luxury cars has been 77% (!) in 2001-2 and now is even bigger at 83%!

    50 years ago, Lincoln and esp. Caddilac dominated this segment and it was exactly the opposite, THEY had 83% and the imports had the rest.

    Will you keep whistling in the dark, and see this segment go 100% Import, OR do something about it?

    (Such as, BUILD A SUPERIOR PRODUCT, Big 3???)

    Luxury car buyers that shell out $50k and $100k each time they buy, do NOT tolerate mediocrity, much less irrelevant junk, when they can have the pick of the litter from the imports for every taste (MErcedeses, BMWs, Audis, And Lexuses-Infinities and Acuras. The first three have far better styling and performance and overall satisfaction, the next three are more reliable and less stylish. But both have trounced the domestic luxury makers big time!)
     
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  35. Can Thor be switched off?

    He's wearing out my scroll wheel while I try to get past his inane banter.
     
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  36. Why do so many of you people rave on an on, about the US car makers making inferior products--- and then say they should "act like the Japanese"?

    Do you actually think the US car makers don't want better products?

    Rubbish. They can't AFFORD (rhymes with Accord) to make anything much better than they do today. WHY?

    The US is too costly of a place for the companies to produce. Ever read the stats on how much each GM car has as a loaded base "cost", directly tied to retiree or US medical costs?

    Its "EASY" for the Japanese to build a premium car when they may have as much as 20% more to spend on quality parts, processes, and inspection.

    Grow up and see the real "facts".
     
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  37. "IGB Says:
    September 21st, 2007 at 1:08 pm

    Can Thor be switched off?

    He’s wearing out my scroll wheel while I try to get past his inane banter."

    I have found all of Thor's posts informative and fact-based. Do you have ANYthing to contribute to this forum? Can you at least point out to ANYthing that he wrote that could qualify as "inane banter"?
     
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  38. I find it pretty sad that when the popularity of Japanese cars was initially catching on in the 1970's the drive by media was touting the quality of these cars. The general public was extremely eager to trash American cars along with the media. The problem I am finding is that in the 70's the quality reports that were very few, at the time were very agianst the Big 3 and the general public with the media was just as vicious. Now the Big 3 are showing improvements that are impressive and many American car companies have been showing these improvements for many years now and the general public is not believing the results of these surveys because they are positive but if the results are negative, than the public drinks the negative kool-Aid without thinking twice about it. Perhaps the public needs to deal with a paradigm shift in their perception? Granted, it has taken a long time for Detroit to get things together. I still am not convinced they have evened the playing field but they are within a couple years of it, in my eyes. If they continue to make the quality gains and the vehicles they are presently making there is no question that the difference between the Japanese and American cars will be extremely small if at all tangible in any real sense.

    I find it funny and sad at the same time, that it is obvious Buick/GM products are and have made SIGNIFICANT QUALITY GAINS yet the general public is so closed minded in thinking that American cars will always be a distant second, third or even fourth place to other regions of the world. Toyota and others make fine cars, I will not dispute that, but to think decade after decade that the Big 3 are incapable of making really nice cars that they do not have any quality as part of their appeal is completely ignorant to what is really going on in the auto industry. In reality, it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that Buick is on par to Lexus in any meaningful measure. Buick has always ranked higher than almost any other American brand to Lexus. GM/Buick have been making consistant quality strides in the Power surveys and Buick has been implementing many of these new manufacturing practices into the new Buick models that have been coming out of the factories the last few years. What you are seeing now is that these efforts Buick and GM have been taken up are starting to pay off big in the Power survey results.
     
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  39. Who ever heard of JD Power 15 yrs ago? How did they magically appear as experts? I take anything JDP says with many grains of salt. Consumers Digest is still around and still the joke it was when its first issue came. I'll take CR anytime. They thoroughly test all the vehicles before reporting on them and survey millions of subscribers before issuing their reliability ratings. Honda had tranny problems and extended the warranty to 7yrs/100k. Gm continues to use faulty ignition switches and poorly made brake components. Chrysler's lifetime warranty (original owner ONLY) is a joke. They can't (or won't) build a decent car transmission. Ask any mechanic about the 2.7 V6. Could be the worst motor ever made. GM and Ford make some damn good trucks. I'll stay away from their cars, thank you. My Accord 4cyl has all the power needed and will run hundreds of thousands of miles with simple maintenance. If you really want a a Cadillac wait 2 yrs and pay half price. Use the rest of the money to pay for you stay at the mental hospital.
     
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  40. Wow! I never knew people were so passionate about what I consider the most boring segment of cards in the world.

    When I am stuck behind someone putting along, it's usully a Camry or Accord.

    Go buy a Porsche or Corvette and live a little--life is too short to drive boring cars.
     
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  41. Please stop saying Japs.... it's disrespectful.
     
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  42. I can't believe some people are so biased against American automobiles. It's that mind set that could kill the American automotive industry and possibly take down the rest of America with it. So all ya'll that drive your little Hondas, Toyotas and other imports are basically killing a NATION whose keystone industry is slowly dying and seemingly no one cares.

    PS: Over 50% of Toyota's vehicles sold in the U.S. are imported.
     
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  43. " Demetris Says:
    October 10th, 2007 at 1:21 am

    I can’t believe some people are so biased against American automobiles."

    That is a TOTAL LIE, imports buyers decide based on the FACTS of the Superior Quality, Reliability, Fun to Drive, and resale value of the imports, but it is the die-hard domestic buyers that are 100% BIASED, and no matter HOW MUCH BETTER the imports are, they NEVER BUY THEM.

    " It’s that mind set that could kill the American automotive industry and possibly take down the rest of America with it."

    NOT AT ALL, what will kill the US auto industry is Generations of Arrogant, Incompetent and vastly overpaid CEOS, in bed with theh corrupt UAW LEadership, that have been producing INFERIOR PRODUCT for 3 decades in a row.

    " So all ya’ll that drive your little Hondas, Toyotas and other imports"

    Your ignorance SHOWS. In fact, the market for mid-priced cars is doing FAR BETTER than the market for LUXURY cars, where it USED to be 90% US, but now Caddilac and Lincoln have only 17% of this market, the LOWEST of ALL MARKT SEGMENTS! And BMW, lexus and Mercedes, the top 3 luxury imports, EACH are bigger than all domestic luxury makers COMBINED. AND, more important, the profits per luxury vehicle are several TIMES the profits of an Accord or Camry.

    " are basically killing a NATION whose keystone industry is slowly dying and seemingly no one cares."

    NO, IT IS THE CORRUPT, INCOMPETENT UAW so-called leadership and your VASTLY overpaid CEOS, the arrogant FOOLS that TOyota and Honda AND BMW AND Mercedes have been beating at HOME GAMES for 35 years in A ROW! And programs like the "JOBS BANK" where YOU LAZY UAW workers get FULL PAY without working even for ONE MINUTE every day, will be the final straw!

    "PS: Over 50% of Toyota’s vehicles sold in the U.S. are imported."

    SO WHAT???? WHO THE EFF CARES???? And 80% of HONDAS are made DOMESTICALLY, but your DISHONESTY does not let youmention this, right? AND where are your precious Ford Fusions made? IN MEXICO!

    Give me a break!

    PS IT IS THE PRODUCT STUPID! Build a SUPERIOR domestic product, and in 10 years you may REGAIN YOUR GOOD NAME you SQUANDERED with decades of poor quality, poor reliability, poor performance and handling POS you have been making!
     
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  44. I can certainly appreciate everyone's point of view, but I would like to offer a different one.

    I am a corporate product trainer with GM, have been for 13 years. I drive the imports for about a week and of course our own products for about the same time. I can't be a 'homer' in this job or my course participants would call me on it.

    It is my observation that the GM of today is a lot different than the GM of only three years ago. Let me give you one example. In terms of fit and finish of exterior metal panels, GM went from poor to excellent. Examine the fit on the GMT 900’s, Lambda vehicles, 2008 CTS, and the stunning metal work on the new Malibu. We took micrometers to these vehicles and compared them to the Acura MDX, BMW 3 series, Tundra, and the SE Camry. I use this example because it is pure data based, and the truth is the GM products had narrower, more consistent panel gaps than each of these competitors.

    The interiors in the last 18 months have seen a similar improvement.

    So it may surprise you that I agree with most of the negative comments about the domestics over the last 20 years, I genuinely think that in the last 18 months that General Motors has proven to me, that they are finally back in the game after a 30 year decline. So I would ask you fellows to do me a favor. Go give the new Malibu, our Trucks, new Cadillacs, and new Lambda Cross Over Vehicles a look. Not to buy one, but a real critical hard look. Examine the fit and finish, and look at the expressive design, and I think you will find that the product itself will convince you that General Motors is now finally awake again.

    Best regards,

    Hardy Douglas
     
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  45. " Hardy Douglas Says:
    October 13th, 2007 at 1:08 am


    It is my observation that the GM of today is a lot different than the GM of only three years ago."

    I agree that GM made major strides under BOB LUTZ, but much is still to be improved. GM is sure t he best positioned of the big 3, and Ford must be the worst, unless they have Several Home Runs under their sleeves. Chrysler under Cerberus is a Question mark. We'll see what "Superman" Bill Press will do for them, aftger they paid him $50 million to defect from Toyota upper mgmt.

    Exterior styling is also far better in some GM products than even some Acuras, Hondas and Toyotas, and sure better than Subarus and Mitsus! Interior, I'm not so sure, but I'll see if you have abandoned the accursed fake woods and hard plastics and tiny, wimpy gauges, that were unacceptable in $35k buicks and $50k Caddilacs!

    The interiors in the last 18 months have seen a similar improvement.

    "So it may surprise you that I agree with most of the negative comments about the domestics over the last 20 years, I genuinely think that in the last 18 months that General Motors has proven to me, that they are finally back in the game after a 30 year decline. "

    You may be surprised that I agree with you here, but I will watch carefully for all the reviews, both the enthusiast mags (such as Car and Driver Comparison tests) AND Comsumer Reports.

    "So I would ask you fellows to do me a favor. Go give the new Malibu, our Trucks, new Cadillacs, and new Lambda Cross Over Vehicles a look."

    WHy are the crossovers so effing heavy? Thje BUick Enclave Coke bottle weighs over 5,000 lbs, and it is not even a real SUV but a crossover. WHY? I see no justification.

    Same for the small Saturn VUe, the new version, being a German Opel Design, looks far better (exterior), but weighs 4.300 lbs, as much as a 7 series BMW!!! Amazingly the Hybrid version makes 32 mpg highway under the NEW EPA stricter rules! Did you game the system here? It must be the 2wd version anyway...

    " Not to buy one, but a real critical hard look. Examine the fit and finish, and look at the expressive design, and I think you will find that the product itself will convince you that General Motors is now finally awake again."

    Exterior design is sure better. I saw the new, huge Honda Accords at the dealer, and their exterior designs are not that good from some angles. Hondas and Toyotas have not had as good exgteriors as VWs. On the other hand, VWs are utter crap reliability -wise, and their components are designed to fail after 60k due to wearout.

    As far as Caddilacs, I like the exterior styling still, after all these years you came up with it, but I have driven a manual CTS prior Gen, and the interior was unacceptable for an allegedly luxury car, hard plastics etc, the kind you find on Chevys and Kias! Why would I pay $40k for this instead of a 3- series? or MB-C class? And the very expensive STS has zero rear room, and even in China, they build long-wheelbase STS's, but here they don't? Please!

    Best regards,

    Edward
     
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  46. Peoples Stop all the car fus' Buy what you like and i will doe the same."When the Camry & Hondas came to the( USA) They was junk just like the Hundai and others cars that cross the pond in to the america soil.'I have driven american made cars for over fifty years.'Now i am driving daewoos & hundia."Will I Drive are Buy American made cars again' wating on the (2008 malibu) chevrolet. OK'
     
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  47. Just my 2 cents. 1992 Saturn Sl1-Went 135 k before dying
    2000 Ford Mustang 200k and still going on orig engine and tranny.(starting to slip just a bit)
     
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  48. Nobody has the right to run Buick down before you drive one. I have owned 3 and they have been superior automobiles at an affordable price. My current vehicle is a 93 buick park ave with 225,000 miles. It runs like new and gets 32 miles per gallon on the highway and 28 in town. It runs flawlessly and has never required a major repair other than tires. I have owned it for 13 years. Sure it doesnt attract the attention that a Lexus does, but then again it didnt cost $60,000. Buick is the working man's Lexus. You can have your Honda's and Toyota's. I will take a Buick anyday.
     
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  49. In 1993, the Buick Century and the Oldsmobile Ciera, after ten years of constant refinement and substantive changes underneath their little changed exteriors, rose to the top of the J. D. Power rankings, for their segment that year; and they led overall that year.

    I bought a 1993 Ciera l 4 door sedan with the 3300 engine. Our family of five ran this loaded metallic grey example out to 227,000 miles and then sold it two years ago, to a teenager who is part of our church family.

    We installed a Reese hitch along the way and used the Ciera to tow our 15 foot, 40 hp. family boat. We also towed our old camper with it, but down hill stops got a little hairy, since the camper's own brakes no longer worked.

    Bottom line is this: The Ciera was as good as gold. It alwasy was called upon for some fairly heavy duty, but it never had any major failure; none... We replaced the alternator, the water pump, and shocks. We had a couple of brake jobs in the more than 200,000 miles, but that is it! That is all. The hard working engine and tranny never did anything wrong. The interior was very quiet too, always.

    On trips from South Paris, Maine to Houghton, New York for our daughter's college needs, and on any other trip, it reliably got 34 MPG, and around town back home, year after year it got 26 in winter and 28 in summer. We never had to add oil between the 3000 mile changes, using ordinary Wal-Mart Super Tech oil or Pennzoil 10 W30.

    One big reason we bought it, was our previous Olds. Our 1987 Calais Brougham, also was a nearly perfect car. This loaded, slightly smaller vehicle, with the 2.5 liter Tech 4 and automatic, was similarly utterly reliable and returned 28 MPG in normal mixed driving and 37 on cruise control type trips to Boston and such. We sold it at 155,000 miles.

    Both cars were very rust resistant compared to others here in South Paris, especially Subarus which turned to rust all around us.

    When I hear some of the posters rant about how every domestic car is crap, I know that I am reading ignorance in print.
     
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  50. I have a 2005 Pontiac G6 that has horrible steering, ratles, already had to have rotars turned at 18,300 miles. A friend who owns a used car lot turns all the rotars on Pontiac G6's as they are bad. It is a joke at retaining its value also compaired to Honda's or Toyota's. Until you have driven both you cannot tell me they are the same or the Domestics are better. No comparison in quality, materials or safety.
     
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  51. Edward aka Thor,

    By now you've probably read that Consumer Reports has admited to 10 years of automatically recommending Toyotas without subjecting them to the same scrutiny of other makes. They have vowed to scrutinize them parallel to other makes due to the quality decline of Toyotas over the past few years. Please take a moment to eat your words. We all knew it all along.

    Also, take a visit to TDIclub.com to see how long VW's last. I've gotten 340,000 miles on a 1999 VW Jetta TDI and currently have 40,000 miles on a 2006 Jetta TDI with no problems and returning 48mpg of Teutonic bliss!

    Your comments all around are incredibly shallow and are clearly drawn from other people's opinions. You said it yourself (car mags).

    You sure have a lot to say for someone with no credible personal experience.
     
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  52. If you think the domestic automakers don't make cars or trucks that are as good as the Japanese then you are about 3 years out of date. While I will admit there was a quality gap at one time the Americans have caught up and in many ways passed the imports. If you are adult enough and objective enough to test drive and compare some of the domestic vehicles you will see difference. If you have already decided the imports are better based on out of date information or someone elses opinion then don't waste our time with your hardheadedness. See for yourself or go away.
     
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  53. 1 comment what truck does the talaban drive? the last time i checked it was a toyota not a chevy ford dodge .why because these trucks seem to run for ever
     
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  54. cardog,
    yep black and white tv's are more reliable. but i think you might be referring to crt tv's not just black and white. i wont buy a plasma because i dont find any satisfaction in buying a huge 60" plasma for thousands and watching it die 2 years later and buying another. that goes the same for cars. i own a honda civic and have never been happier. the reliability is fantastic, but thats not all. the resale on my civic is so good that i never needed gap insurance. i bought it at $6000 used and it will always be worth more than my 2 year loan. smoothness was the number one factor in buying this car. every car i rode in that was within my budget was horrendous. dont even get me started on the ford escort. that was such a joke after riding in two of them. i could hear and feel every bump, while the civic seemed to not have that problem. test driving the civic was bliss. it took corners like a champ, the engine was quiet, the seats were adequate but still felt firm unlike the caravan which those seats seem to have flattened over the years. the safety was a relief with dual air bags and the insurance was a steal! i mean come on! how can you not buy this car???? the fact that i was ignorant enough to buy a dodge and a ford pissed me off. i couldn't help it of course because they were my first two cars and i didnt know any better. from now on i will NEVER buy anything except honda, and well maybe acura because of their trade in value.

    so far after owning my civic for a year and a half the only thing i have had to replace on my 115,000 mile car is the muffler...
    besides that it just keeps going!
     
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  55. After owning domestics over the years, I am on my second Honda Civic and I am not looking back.....

    The domestics were a royal pain to own, and the way I was treated at the domestic service department was so atrocious that I vowed never again. My first Civic was great, no troubles, awesome fit and finish and ride quality, and fuel economy in the 40s. Just got tired of a stick, so I got the new 2006 Civic, and I love it. Only been back for oil changes in 40000 miles and counting. And now I am considering the new Toyota Tundra as a second vehicle...had one out on a test drive(2wd single cab 4.7 V8) and fell in love with it. Plenty of power, very roomy cab, especially the space behind the seat for carrying stuff, and excellent ride.

    All you domestic lovers who spit venom because you have had your asses handed to you over the years by Honda and Toyota and others, and it shows no sign of letting up anytime soon....REALITY BITES HARD NOW DOESN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  56. I read all of the post today and enjoyed them. I must comment on three statements that are often repeated. One statement was that some Fords are assembled in Mexico. Yes they are. I have owned both a Mercury Tracer and a Ford Escort assembled in Mexico. The quality of assembly on both cars was excellent. Another comment was that the Chevrolet Aveo is a Daewoo built in Korea. Yes it is. I test drove the Daewoo Lanos and when it was still a Daewoo and later when it was rebadged as a Chevrolet. As a Lanos the car was crude, underpowered, and noisy. As a Chevrolet the car is underpowered and noisy although much more attractive. I own a Daewoo Nubiro which is now sold as a Suzuki Forenza and as a Chevrolet in Canada. The engine built by GM in Australia has good low end torque and is durable. The automatic transmission is the same one used in the Chevrolet Cavalier. The cas has few outstanding features. Some of the parts are throw-away. Front end and brake parts have been replaced twice. Otherwise the car is ok after 91,000 miles Non of the entheusist magazines ever said great things about this car. But, to keep cost down Ford will continue to assemble cars in Mexico and GM will continue to rebadge Daewoos as Chevrolets. The other comment that I keep reading is that JDPowers is not reliable. I think that overall, each car company has the reputation that it deserves. None of my friends has ever said a bad word about their Honda or Toyota. The consumer votes with his pocketbook. American companies are losing market share. It is sad. Maybe the American companies do not listen to consumers. Japanese car companies seem to listen better.
     
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  57. A car's reliability record Should not be based on subjective satisfaction but actual service repairs records in a given time period. We really should be asking CarFAX and not JD Powers.

    Satisfaction does NOT equal Reliability
     
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  58. Go to an used car reliability site . . . punch in 2001 Honda Accord - unreliable - transmissions fall out sometimes 3 times in 100k. Now punch in 2001 Taurus - reliable, safe and half the price of the Accord.
    The Honda/Toyota myth lives in your minds only . . . . both the 07 Camry and Accord got marginal rear crash results from the Insurance institute tests, as well the seats and headrests were inadequate.
    Last year Consumer Reports tested Camry 4 cyl. - with 4 people, luggage, a/c on and going down the highway at 70 mph - it got 26 mpg - same as an Explorer!!!
    Drive them down a twisty road - they sure ain't BMW's - don't drive as nice as a Fusion econobox.
    Asked my Acura friend where all the 88 Acuras were??? His response "good point". I drive an 88 Turbo Coupe - goes down the road every day, no rust, original drive train - including the turbo. Has 240,000 miles on it and still dusts a new Civic SI even in the corners.
    I get a kick out of the Lexux guy - the friggin Lex is twice the price of the Buick. That's the same Lex with 400 hp that does 0 - 60 in 7 seconds - just like my TC.
    5 years ago - when Toyota was no. 1 - according to JD Powers - Toyota couldn't stop reminding us in every advert - now they are no. 6 and the fans cry foul!!!
    I drove a Corolla for a month in Europe a couple of years back - what a crap can - after a 2 hour drive my ass was so sore from the crummy seat I had to stop.
    How about the Toyota engineers in formula 1 - ! BILLION budget and can't get on the poldium - Renault won last year - spent 280 million. Honda doesn't do much better - they can grenade 3 engines within a lap of each other. Guess they forgot t press the Vtech button.
    A friend of mine has had 3 Civics in the 18 years I have driven my TC - care to guess whose cost per mile is lowest - mine!!! And I didn't add anything for the comfort, handling and pure fun driving the TC. The TC is still worth 3 or 4 thousand today!!
    For every domestic car (big 3) sold in the US - creates about 3 jobs. Every import, even though assembled in the US, with mostly foreign parts, creates 1 job.
    For every import assembled here, they bring in 3 or 4 more assembled off-shore.
     
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  59. Thor . . . I have had three Volvos . . . but they are not as reliable as most Fords I have had.
    Even JD Powers agrees. Consumer Reports does their car ratings based on owners feelings . . . JD studies repair frequencies. Which one makes sense to you??
    The fit and finish is good in japanese cars, but the crash worthiness and engineering is dubious at best. Ever try to fix a Prius? A Matrix, Civic or Echo is one accident away from the junk yard. Usually they are unfixable.
    Saw a Honda Ridgeline in body shop the other day, the guy hit a curb with the front wheel, broke the wheel . . . . the amount of damage was unreal. The whole goofey frame thing that supports the engine, trans, front suspension was bent like a parallellogram . . . . over $4,000 to repair. If he had been driving a Dodge, Chev or Ford he would have had a broken wheel, maybe a bent spindle . . . under $1,000. This is Honda engineering??? Hell, they only made an Accord that got 5 stars in a front crash test 4 years ago!!!
    A friend was doing PR work for Nissan back in the day . . . a so-called auto journalist was writing bad things about Nissan, so my friend took him to dinner, gave him a 300 to drive for a year and sent him to Japan to visit the factory . . . never wrote bad things again - what vision!
    I love the folks with the fond memories. . . . remember the first Civics? They rusted out in the rain, were death traps and expensive to fix. $600 for a clutch in 1980. Or the 70's Corollas with 2 speed autos 80 hp and more rust . . . what joy!!!
    Of course H & T owners only buy them to sell them . . . . got to take advantage of that resale value . . . . that is nuts!!! I see dealers trying to sell 3 or 4 year old cars for near what they cost new . . . but . . . after 8 or 9 years they are $1500 cars or if you life in the rust belt they are disolved.
    Name me a car under $30,000 that has a 5 star crash rating on all 4 sides, stops in 129 ft from 60 mph, has 260 hp, gets almost 30 mpg and has available awd?
    Its the new Taurus. Volvo C90 platform, brakes, awd, and super safe. Seats and headrests among best in the industry . . . unlike our Japanese friends who still have issues with seats, headrests and rear crashes.
     
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  60. I have 4 in the stable:
    A 1997 Jeep Wrangler TJ -167k
    A 1998 Jeep Wrangler TJ - 120k
    A 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee - 154k
    A 2006 Hummer H3 - 30k

    I have replaced an exhaust manifold on each Wrangler and a water pump in the Grand Cherokee

    GO BIG THREE
     
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  61. News for Thor and Edward,

    My wife drove a Pontiac Grand Prix for 14,000 miles and we sold it for more than we paid for it!!
    We have bought 3 GM vehicles this year alone and the reality is they are a dream to drive!!
    The user reviews for these cars are more accurate than expert reviewers and your opinions.
    The good facts and information are available for any other reader in the user review sites. Almost all you need. JD Powers is a good start. Consumer Reports is to be avoided entirely, this mag reeks of bias and is best used as fireplace fuel!!
     
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  62. For whatever is worth I own a 1994 Crown Victoria that has over 335,000 miles. Have always used Castrol 5W 50 synthetic oil all year around in Houston, Texas. Replacing oil every 10,000 miles and adding a couple quarts in betwen changes. So far replaced a/c air compressor, two warped front rotors and a radiator. Car is had 3 tune ups, each at 100,00- miles, looking forward to the 4th tune up. Least expensive car I ever owned. Best couch ride on 4 wheels on the highway, most of the time still manage to get 22-24 MPG. Still feel safe driving this spacious American engineered/Canadian assembled road tank.
     
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  63. 1999 Chevy Astro with 502,000 miles. I have another one that has already 69,200 miles [2005]

    Subjectiveness doesn't works....

    Here is a classic example: 2005 Honda Accord 102 TSB issued [Ref: NHTSA]. Read the database yourself to determine what is true versus myths. Not keep ragging on Honda but they been rated as #4 most problematic brand since 03.


    So much for CR or those subjectiveness reports.
     
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  64. Our 2008 Toyota Corolla LE is noisy and loud. The Corolla is buzzy and vibrates awfully...so bad our feet tingle from all the racket underneath.

    Our GM Saturn ION is quiet and smooth riding, noticeably quieter than our Corolla, especially when accelerating from a stop. The ION's handling is good, and headroom and front legroom is better than our Corolla, which feels cramped in comparison to our ION .

    We are very disappointed with Toyota and will no longer believe the hype. We will probably trade-in the Corolla on something more civilized, like a horse and buggy.
    _
     
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  65. If Ford and G.M. keep the quality up like they have been, in about 10 years they will get their customers back. They blew it in the 70's 80's and 90's. The buying public have VERY good memorys, the reason they switched to foreign brands is because they were tired of buying junk.
     
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  66. OMG let's all talk about the cars that we own or cars that we have owned and bash each other! Yay!
     
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  67. I just had to put in a plug for the much maligned 2006.5 KIA Optima.It sure doesn't get much respect from any of the car publications.At best they are considered "good value" but always "boring". I have one of these in my garage, and it has been a pleasant surprise.After 13,000 miles in just over a year,it's just purring along.Handles great,looks good and on the highway has been as miserly as 40.7 MPG. I do wish the Optima would get more respect,but the fact that nobody pays attention to them might explain my cheap insurance rates.
     
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  68. Hi guys!

    I was researching reliability/repair records of German cars and stumbled on your debate/arguments about "who makes the best cars."

    In the late 1980's I bought a new Ford Tempo. On the way home from the dealer ... it broke down!! That's right -- I had about 19 miles on the car, and it just DIED. The dealer sent a flatbed to take it back. Three days later I got it back and drove my soon to summer camp. Well 160 miles from home, it broke down again. Tow truck, car rental, 3 days in the shop -- and this was a BRAND-NEW car!!!

    For the next two years that car was in the shop every 6 weeks with some new and baffling problem. (For the record, this "American" Ford was built in Canada.)

    After three years of pain and $$$ I sold the Ford (and lost money on it) and bought a USED 1990 Toyota Celica -- very sporty. Well, over the next 7 years I had ZERO problems with that car -- ZERO repairs! Just tires, brakes, filters, the usual maintenance. It was a wonderful, fast, fun car -- and totally trouble-free.

    In 1998 I shipped my faithful Celica from New England to California for my son. Well, after 18 years and over 200,000 miles, that Celica is still being driven every day! It looks like hell, and smells like all the food my son has spilled in it over the years, but it RUNS GREAT. He's had to put some work into it of course, but 18 years!!! I am impressed.

    Before I buy any car, I study all the repair records for each make and model because RELIABILITY is what matters most to me -- and this is where Toyota and Honda lead the field. In my opinion, Life is too short to spend in a car repair center's waiting room, drinking stale coffee and reading old magazines.

    I have heard that Ford and other American companies are making good cars again, but frankly, after my nightmare, it will take many years of excellent reliability records before I "buy American" again. Owning that 1988 Ford COST ME A FORTUNE in repairs! So "buying American" was basically hurting my own family. I'm not willing to donate money to Ford or any other company.

    Besides, as someone pointed out earlier, with so many Americans working for --- or owning stock in --- Japanese car companies, buying Toyota and Honda cars also helps put money in Americans' pockets. It's the global economy at work.


    Anyway, keep up the spirited debate.
     
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  69. I think it is no longer absolute to say Honda and Toyota make the longest lasting vehicals. I have seen many a Domestic built in the Eighties, ninties, that have more than 250k. While I have a soft spot for BMW (overenginerred and worth it) and have owned, Nissan, Honda, Saab, Mazda, Renault, Peugeot, Subaru - I remain a Ford man at heart. And I will tell you after owning, racing, and driving cars for 25 years, the domestics are always cheaper to modify for performance, and cheaper to repair. If you like the way a Honda or Toyota makes you feel - great, but please refrain from making the tired old "they are so reliable". Its funny how import buyers trade their car every year and buy the same model becaue they are "so reliable" - duh! The domestics tought the world about turn key reliability - and after a lapse are again bulletproof!
     
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  70. The American automakers will survive. They are too valuble to our economy NOT too. As far as quality: I agree with those here that give the nod to Honda and Toyota. It appears that the German makes are among the worst (according to CR data), and that the Yanks are somewhere in the middle. I hope that GM and Ford are successful with their new launches. Toyota is getting VERY arrogant, and it would be fun to see them knocked off their perch by the Yanks, at some future point. I own a Ford Ranger (mediocre quality @ 77K miles, and it vibrates [transmission] like hell, but the engine has never let me down), and also own an old 89 Honda Civic (literally unbreakable thus far), but it has rusted to hell, so it won't last much longer (134K miles). So, it amuses me how emotional people get over CARS...cars are just appliances like toasters or washers...get over it. May the best auto company win.
     
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  71. When I see domestic manufactures provide free service loaners like import dealers do, then I’ll believe their quality is on par with top import brands.
     
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  72. Dale..."If he had been driving a Dodge, Chevy or Ford, he would have had a broken wheel, maybe a bent spindle . . . under $1,000."
    If he had been driving a domestic…they would have experienced a rollover, then burst into flames. The manufacturer would blame the wheel and tire suppliers, then settled everything under gag order out of court .
     
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  73. Just my 10 Cents worth
    but i hate all this import/domestic bullcrap yeah both have there own greatness but also some has to do with the owners of the car or truck or whatever , you kan have a brand new car blow up with some sleezy drivers or if you take car of it it will last for years , i have a 1989 Astro van ( have you seen the list of problams ppl have reported ) anyways i bought it with 320,000kms on it , and it lasted un till it was 459000kms i babied it , body was good everything was good , same as a friend of mine 94 Chev Truck 350,000 kms no real huge problems , i have friends with imports too same situation , high kms no problems , so when i hear about ppl complaing about import, domestic stuff yeah they both have problems ( also try to buy a car made on a tuesday or wednesday :) it will be better )
     
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  74. I'm on 308,000 kms on my 2003 Focus wagon. The motor was recently tested with full compression. The timing belt and water pump was changed at 225,000 kms on recommendation not because of failure. I have abused this car in five years with ditches, mud bogs, several large animals, arctic type winters. The mtx still has the orginal clutch and gears, original exhaust was solid when I changed out to a s/s custom setup last fall, the heated leather still works fine, as does the A/C, all the idiot lights, heater, P/S pump, wiper motor. I believe the original headlamp bulb in one side is still working ( we have DRLs in Canada ). Just had to replace two fuel pumps .. a constant lousy part in several of my Fords.. due to failure and mice have eaten through the ABS and T/C harness. Is this car reliable? YES. Would I buy another? NO.
    In my small town of 15,000 there are dozens of Focus wagons scurrying about. What does Ford do, eliminate the only practical car they make! So I can't buy another Focus wagon!
    I expect to get over 400,000 kms on this car using synthetic oil for its entire life and I expect to put a total of $5000.00 in repairs and maintenance in that lifespan mostly because labour is running $105.00/hour and Ford wants ludicrous prices for its parts like $350 for a headlamp or $600 for an alternator.
    Conversely, the 1990 JDM Benz 300E we bought with only 80,000kms has cost $3000 already for headgasket, waterpump, headbolt tightening and now a simple cd player swap has likely botched the $700 console light unit. German engineering my butt.

    JD Power assessments are like TV polling companies. Ask the right family and you get Two and Half Men as a top-rated show.
     
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  75. I wonder why modern Mercedes-Benz cars rank so low in Reliability. I agree that quality has slipped somewhat, but why the low reliability rating? I own 2 Mercedes-Benzes, a 2001 SLK320 and a 2005 C240. Both incredible cars. The C-Class has 40,000 miles and runs just as new. One complaint is the small interior, modest power and V8 like gas mileage (I get 20 mpg average). The SLK has 26K and runs well. Both Mercs are solid and well built. No electrical nightmares here.

    I also own two new Hondas. I got a 2006 Civic LX. An excellent overall vehicle. I love the styling in and out, driving dynamics. Could use more torque, noise isolation, and a much improved suspension. It is very noisy and I cant carry 3 average sized people without the rear slammed to the floor. Transmission could use more refinement. Extremely poor gas mileage (weird, right?). Range is like 270 miles on a full tank.

    The other Honda is an 2008 Accord EX-L V6. Awesome power (268 hp) in a family car. Very spacious. Wish it was a 6-speed auto, the 5-speed is a bit slow. Styling is nice, if not eyecatching. Im extremely impressed with gas mileage. The most powerful car gives the best gas mileage. Well above 30 mpg in mixed driving (range is 350 miles a tank).
     
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  76. guys, you don't get the jd power thing, do you? these guys were proven to be handing the world fist full of lies for the longest time about multiple car companies. the only reason they finally admitted the buicks were at about the same level with lexus is that a study they did for a group of manufacturers and insurance companies about reliability which was supposed to stay secret was leaked to the press. this study showed buicks clearly at the top in reliability above any other make with toyota/lexus a not too distant second and honda third. the rest of the american makes weren't too far down the list, followed by the germans and finally at the bottom were the korean, italian, and british makes. since this story has been leaked, they started changing their story slowly each year to fit the leaked numbers. just thought you might want to know why jd power is saying what they're saying now. [oh, and the only two things i trust about cr's reporting on cars is that hondas are going down in quality and that mercedes benz can't make a decently reliable car]
     
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  77. When I was a kid we changed the spark plugs every 5000 miles and pulled the heads off every 20,000 miles to scrape off the carbon. You were guaranteed a puncture on any long trip but some tire irons and a patch came out and a half hour later we were on our way again.
    Our car could do 40 mph down hill with wind behind it.
    People today are so fixated on their cars, the luxury items, the size of the engine and how fast it can go, when really all it does is get us from A to B.
    The car manufacturers created an amazing industry where they can sell products and rely on the governments to use taxes to build the roadways they run on!
    I can't believe that the American car manufacturers will continue to make the kinds of cars they are making today. If they are to survive, they must by creative and look at the market today where people just want basic transport. Lets face it, in a city or a town do you really have time to put on the dvd player - how often do you really use this kind of luxury?
    How about a basic car like the old days? You get in it, it starts, you drive it to where you're going and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Who needs ABS, airbags, dvd players, cd players, leather seats, traction control, sun roofs, electric doors, electric windows, power steering, ac, and all the other paraphernalia - just let me buy a car like the model T, plain and simple. Of course it has to be electric.........
     
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  78. Good point about wanting a basic car like the model T, Phil. I own two cars. One is a 92 Ford Festiva. No frills, no power anything. It rattles and smokes, but it starts every time, goes like stink and is a great little driver. Mazda/Ford/Kia got this one right.

    My other car is an 06 Matrix, fairly well optioned. It's relatively quiet, but it's been in the shop 10 times in the past year and a half, with another appointment scheduled for next week. Toyota blew it on this one.

    If I had a choice to buy either car, brand new, again, I'd go with the Festiva.
     
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  79. This is a very interesting forum, Their is a lot of oppions shared and some facts. Remeber that their are repair companys and dealerships that stay busy for import and domestic vehicles. I personally prefer domestic vehicles, their are no import trucks that I consider real trucks. (it needs to be a 3/4 ton at min.)
     
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  80. Domestic vehicle drivers have enjoyed steady improvements in quality for several years now. So it’s time to show your support by petitioning domestic manufactures to increase prices based on those improvements.
    If domestic automakers increased parts and vehicle prices by a mere 5–15%, it would eliminate layoffs and restore solvency that’s stifling high-mileage product development.
    Don’t delay…demand TODAY!!!
     
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  81. I have driven a Toyota from hell and a pile of fecal matter. A BMW 740il was nice as any, but it did have high maintenance persona, tire ran $500 a piece, but lasted almost to 100,000 miles. The Cadillac CTS rides better, handles better, the creature comforts are better, and its just a better car. Just drive one prior to making judgement.
     
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  82. The funny thing here is that as long as Lexus was CRs darling no one disrespected and or questioned CR and or it judgement. Now we have a flaw with CR, well JD Powers is not going to please you either. Asians are losing ground. Get over it, deal with it.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependability-study-14th-year-straight/
     
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